Quiet Quitting Through a Motivational Interviewing Lens

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About This Episode

Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve. 
Today we are talking about the trend of Quiet Quitting. We are looking at it through a Motivational Interviewing lens and distinguishing what the ethics and generational differences are in the workforce today. And, how the pandemic and other issues contribute to Quiet Quitting.

About This Episode

• Quiet Quitting from the employee’s and employer’s standpoint
• Our perspective of Quiet Quitting and what is going on 
• Work ethic and differences across different generations 
• Looking at Quiet Quitting from the context of the pandemic
• How Family issues, social issues, community issues and political issues contribute
• Productivity and how workers spend their time
• Value, behavior and skill sets
• Loving what you do and feeling supported
• How is Motivational Interviewing supportive?
• Mindset, passion, fulfillment and a path forward
• Hiring, retention and burnout
• Autonomy vs. financial rewards
• And so much more!

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For those who are new to this podcast, the MICA is the Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment. For more information or to schedule a training visit https://www.ifioc.com/.

Thank you for listening to The Communication Solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at [email protected]. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com. 

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Want a transcript? See below!

October Podcast #1

Hello everyone. Welcome back. We have our team here with our very helpful and guiding leading director, Casey Jackson. Welcome Casey, myself, John Gilbert as usual. And we have Danielle, Canton, who, Danielle, if you wouldn’t mind just introducing yourself real quick, just as you are joining the.

Awesome. Thanks John. I’m excited to be  here. Just joining you and the Institute for Individual and Organizational Change has been an incredible experience. The communication solution, this podcast is amazing. I’m excited about the different topics we’re gonna be jumping in on. And thank you for letting me be a curious mind here to kind of play off of you and Casey.

Ask some questions and, introduce these. To folks out there that when they learn this communication solution, it really will change their world. Yeah. Well to that point, you came up with a topic today, but Casey, like you were gonna say something. No, that, that’s exactly it. I just wanna dive into this.

It’s fascinating as we’re, you know, as we’re always kind of digging through different topics, but this whole trend about quiet, quitting and then, you know, as we as a team, were just walking through that and looking from an MI lens., you know, distinguishing between quiet, quitting and what are the generational differences?

You know, is it quiet, quitting across all generations who are in the workforce right now? Is it different than what, you know, kind of Gen X look at, at the millennials and have kind of a bias from an ethical work ethic perspective? I so excited to dive into this, mostly because we have that cross-generational representation here on the podcast, to be able to talk about too.

I’m excited to dive into this. On the same page. And I know this is something that you both are more familiar with than I am, just the whole movement of it. So defining our terms, maybe of what is quiet, quitting, what’s going on with it. And, and from that perspective, we can then riff off of it with an MI lens.

So if either of you wouldn’t mind kind of giving your perspective on quiet, quitting and what’s going.

I’ll, I’ll give them the, just cause I know just the, the basics is the, basically people are showing up to work,  barely, that they’re doing the minimum of what they need to do, but they are no longer putting their life blood or more than they need to into the job. They’re putting in enough to collect the paycheck.

Um, you know, and I think every industry has. People show up that do that. But the scale of this is where it’s become more of a acknowledged phenomenon. Like just on a larger scale, you know, what’s the minimum job requirement? You’re not getting extra minute out of me, you’re not getting extra ounces of energy from me.

Like, I will show up and do what I need to do. And, and that’s it. So Danielle, I don’t know if there’s. More, you know, from what you’ve looked at. That’s for me just kinda the, the brief overview. Yeah. There’s so many different angles to quiet quitting from the employee’s standpoint, from the employer’s standpoint and different areas.

So I think to really keep this podcast focused, this conversation, I  like where you went, Casey, which is, you know, what is the distinguishing factor about quiet quitting? And then also are we looking at those work ethic?, differences across d different generations. . So I think kinda dialing in on that one specific piece of quiet quitting could be really helpful for this conversation, cuz if not, there’s, there’s a lot of different perspectives and conversations happening around the topic.

I’ll tell you the thing that just strikes me is what I look at so often is, you know, how do we look at workforce and how do we support workforce? and the looking like you were talking, Danielle, from an, from the individual end of one worker perspective, it is almost impossible for me. I know we, you, you can’t look at this without looking at the context of the pandemic.

You can’t look at the context with people being forced to wear masks or vaccines irrespective of where you  fall on that spectrum of your belief. . But what I look at from all the work I’ve been doing around brain science and trauma informed is I, there’s no way you can separate that from just basic exhaustion, and reevaluation.

I think. So partly, I think there’s kind of that fight, flight, freeze perspective in terms of, I think people are just so exhausted. It’s like literally dragging yourself to work on a Monday morning of just mental and emotional spiritual fatigue. And getting yourself through the day. I think the, the chronic exposure to trauma, when you look at, you know, complex trauma and, issues, there’s just, there’s no way people are gonna drink their cup of coffee and skip into work every day.

When they’ve got all the family issues and the social issues and the community issues and the political issues going on. I think people are just exhausted and can’t find reprieve. So there’s part of it that I think is that term  quiet, Quit. accurate because it seems like it’s a workforce issue versus a public health or public mental health issue.

So that’s one thing that I think of just as we’re just chatting about it before we launch the podcast. Those are things that I’m thinking about just from a brain science perspective versus a kind of a stigmatizing or a labeling perspective. What’s the accuracy of what’s going on? Yeah. There’s a, there’s a term that comes to mind as we’re kind of talking about this for coming into it, of presenteeism is what I remember hearing about, before this quiet quitting where, people are showing up to work, but.

Maybe not. You know, and these are seem seemingly are somewhat ambiguous, but Casey you were saying like something where you don’t get a minute of my time more, it seems interesting how it’s being defined, be it presenteeism or quiet quitting because it’s like, There’s almost this sense of like, what  exactly is enough?

Right? And so I see it with time, but it seems like there’s a, There there. And I know we can totally talk about our dynamic that we have here, but even for myself, it’s like, well, if there aren’t certain clear things, when is enough enough? Right? And whose angle, like you were saying, Danielle, from the owner to and, and boss to the employee, perceptions of what enough is, is it coming across in a certain way of a tonality and a resentment? Is it actual time? Like, what is it? And I think that can be very important to get clear on, I know for myself, but also for like, what are we really talking about is presenteeism, is quiet, quitting?

And how is that being perceived from different sides? So,

So yeah, . Oh my gosh. So now I have 15 other thoughts to spin off of that . I, I think of the difference, part of a trend that I experienced from moving, from being in the trench behavioral health, it was about productivity. When I very first started, there was even less about productivity in behavioral health because we could just bill.

For hours in public nonprofit, you could just bill. Then when it started shifting to managed care, you had to get in a certain number of hours. You had to see a certain number of people because it was based on risk manage. There’s all these things around productivity, so I’m just gonna stop there.

Productivity and, and part of it then there became more flexibility about hours because you know, when you think generations back, like with my parents, it was clock in and clock. There was, it was less about productivity. It was you clocked in and you clocked out and that’s what you got paid in was clock in, clock out.

When things started shifting to productivity, there was kind of this bridge between, yeah, you clock in, you clock out, and then you have to achieve this much during then I think  as, as more progressive. Businesses, whether it was rarely on the state or side of it, but it was more on the, I think for-profit side is, hey, if you can get your productivity done, we don’t care when you clock in and clock out.

I think that’s where the Google, you know, just all those things about, you know, having the, the bunk beds in the, you know, personal stuff in the workplace that just, people, as long as you’re being productive, we don’t care how you spend your time. And what they found is, well, people tend to spend their time more that way.

That was kind of, I was on the front end of that when I was starting. If I O c. And I think this is what’s so fascinating from a personal and professional level with you and I, John, because you are a millennial and I’m a Gen Xer, so. For me, what I looked at when you and I first met, and we talked potentially about working together, You coming to work for I F I C?

I can tell you from a hiring perspective, from an executive director perspective, I knew your value set because you and I knew, you know, developed such a deep friendship.  I knew your basic value set. I knew your obsession with mi, and I knew when I hired you. You would be more working more than 40 hours a week.

I knew that you’d be putting more brain power than 40 hours a week into the job. And I thought from a, from a friend perspective, the fact that you get paid to do something you’d be doing anyway, because I think you’re still in grad school at that point. I knew you’d be working hard because you’re already obsessed with it and you’re already putting the time into it, not getting paid.

Um, so to me it just seemed like such a natural fit to just go. He’s gonna make an income. Who wouldn’t want that in their workforce? Somebody that’s so obsessed that they’re, you know, sitting in front of a computer studying all sorts of research till three or four in the morning, and not literally getting paid for that, but getting paid for that.

Um, I, I can tell you that’s where my mindset was from a, from a friend perspective, from a peer perspective, and then from a director perspective, it seemed like a win-win to me from that, and, and, and I. When  we look at the quiet quitting part of it, because your value set was so driven by making a difference from a health perspective, you know, I won’t fascinate with evidence based practice wanting to look at the latest research and how do you make a difference in the world from a, from a healthcare perspective, and then being able to make, you know, draw down a paycheck by being obsessed with that cons.

Do you think, Do you think, Casey, as I listened to you and John speak about this, John brought up, you know, when is enough enough? Yeah. And you segued into a value conversation. So understanding and knowing John’s what John values, it’s like, how do you then take that John and say, Gosh, how do you know what enough is enough when what I’m doing is so aligned with my deeper individual values?

Of making an impact, in health. I think that, that for me, and then John, jump in for  me, I think what’s been really, I not complicated has been complex, has been the balance between how is raised generationally and what I believe. So how has raised generationally like, and John is a perfect n of one. Is, is he getting enough hours in?

There’s, there’s a basic tape in the back of my brain. It’s, is he getting enough hours in? But what I believe is I really don’t care if he’s getting the hours in because if he shows up and produces an excellent training and he, and he, and he’s available when I need him to do what he needs to do, and he is always available, I really don’t care what, how he’s navigating his time as long as he continues to grow.

And I can see that, and that comes out in evaluations. I mean, that’s where I’m lucky in our profess. Because John gets evaluated every time he shows up to work, Every time he shows up to training, he’s going to get evaluated. Not everybody has those indicators. That’s something as a, as an executive director.

And then on the flip side, I don’t read those, so, so I know they’re being evaluated, but I also know if there’s  outliers that something’s going to pop up and there’s time out, outliers come up and those do pop up and they come to my attention and then we talk about those things. So, so for me, when we get into enough is when is enough enough?

It as an executive director, what I want is I want somebody that works for me to feel like they’re fulfilled, like they love what they do. Because if we don’t love what we do and people don’t love what we do, I, I said this in our very first year, no existence at I F C when we had a relatively large team at our first developmental retreat.

I said, If we are not generating income and you don’t like what you do, we shouldn’t be in. You, we all met are meant to be other places, and we need to have faith that if people aren’t coming to us for business and you don’t like what you do, we’re meant to be somewhere else and we need to trust that. So for as much as I’m gonna always fight to make sure we’re financially viable, there’s also a piece that I’m gonna always look at in terms of if we’re not value added to people and you don’t feel like you’re valued in what you’re doing, that is not  okay.

If, if, if I get to around the world,, I want people to love what they do and feel supported. and, and if we’re doing that in a great way, then we should have business. And if we don’t have business, then either what we’re doing is not valued or you’re meant to be somewhere else doing something of value to you.

Does that make sense, Danielle? It does it, it really does. And I think, you know, I’m, I’m kind of putting the lens on of people listening and what they might be going through in their workplace, and I’m curious how motivational interview. Could maybe support them in this because you, you naturally do do what I think some companies and businesses are missing out on.

Yeah. Which is really dialing in on, you know, what is wrong with having a passion? It doesn’t mean you have to give blood. Right. It doesn’t mean you have to suffer. So it’s like the people that might be checking out and quiet, quitting because they’re like, I’m done. I don’t, you know, my, this job doesn’t have to be my  life and I don’t have to love it.

And my passion, it’s like, What if it could be ? Like, Yeah. Who, who wouldn’t want that? And I’m, I’m curious if maybe people are just giving up because they don’t have a path forward. Yeah. They don’t know how to actually achieve it as the employee or the employer. And if the perception is, I’m never gonna get a sense of fulfillment from my job.

Like I’m just not gonna get fulfilled from my job. So I’ll put in my eight hours and then get home and get fulfilled outside of my. I think that there’s that, I think there’s that in the mix as well too. John, what’s your, I you hear all of this stuff, Think of Richard listener’s lens as well. Beyond just my own, you know, thoughts and reactions to my own situation.

You know, cuz we’re just talking about so much of our dynamic at if I S C. But yeah, there’s an element of, I think, clarity as to what is considered enough  from. Angles and like, I think that that’s, helpful to just be clear on that. Like you were talking about, of, you know, being available and, well, what is, you know, like just those sorts of things and being clear up front for people, like what are they getting themselves into?

Cuz I can just think of certain friends being in Seattle, otherwise,, are they clear what they’re getting themselves into in this role? Right, and I think the clearer the, the job description is and that sort of a thing, there is less of a

likelihood that those, things could get crossed. You know, now there’s a much more clarity, just like in etiquette or something like that. There’s much more clarity. On each side that’s meant to bring comfort and clarity, right? So I think that’s just important from my own personal perspective. And  so that’s really helpful to, to hear from you.

But I think that is something like, do people know what they’re getting themselves into as a more broad sense, for the listener? And is it being romanticized or aggrandized or ex extra exciting because. Money or being associated with something or, you know, respect from this role, do they really know what they’re getting themselves into in this role?

And I think that’s really interesting. More broadly, versus just my experience. And what, what will come from that? So that’s one, one component of it. And then just the other component too is like the, the own personal side of it, but also what does that look like in a larger organization than ours of like support.

Right? Like, what does that mean? Right? What does that look like and how is that experienced? So those are some of the things that I’m, I’m thinking about like, how would that even  be in a big bureaucracy of different organizations that, aren’t something so small and nimble and e more easily adaptable like us compared to something when you just feel a cog in a.

Of the people with, sort of that are there longer hierarchy or you feel like there’s a lot of bureaucracy to get through? I just think that that, that the bigger you go with some of this conversation, the harder it is to have the perfect alignment with behaviors and values and clarity at all these levels, if that makes sense.

It does. And I, I wanna tie this into what Danielle had. So where does that might fit into this as well too, because we are the institute for individual and. Organizational change and part of the organizational change. I, when I, when I think of that, John, what you’re talking about, and you know, Danielle, where your brain is at with this, as far as where is that, where does MI have a  play in this?

I do go back to that, some of those first to the dev development and evolution of motivational interviewing. I was so crystal clear. I was so crystal clear that if it’s gonna be my organization, We need to be extremely clear what our vision, our mission, and our values are. I just, for whatever reason, I just had a distinct perspective on that, and I think because it was around motivational interviewing, which is how do you keep your behavior in line with your values?

And this is how I start any organizational assessment or when I work with corporations or with, you know, government agencies or you know, private nonprofits. . For me, it’s always that organizational assessment of where is their behavior in relationship to their vision, their mission, and their value statement.

It is something, there’s not a week that goes by that a part of my vision statement, mission statement or value statement doesn’t click in. that is so critical for my brain to understand that I, I think of all the time, Danielle, when you came  on board, one of the things that I told you with customers that we have is we believe in loyal partnership, which is why we have some of the same partners that we’ve had for 11 years.

We’ve been in existence because we, that is our priority. And I, and I’m so clear when I work with organizations, I didn’t write anything financial in the vision, mission, or value., which is baffling to people in the business world. Not that I didn’t write it in there, but that’s not what I’m driven by.

It’s the same thing. I know. If we provide an exceptional product to people and it is value added, we will always have a customer. Always, always. I know. I believe that in my bones, and we’ve been around for 11 years now. Without a business plan., much of the chagrin is so many people that are way smarter than me in business.

Um, but it’s also part of the successes because of what we do and the passion that we have and the commitment to providing exceptional things. I, I think, John, where this translate to what you’re talking about when I run through that  motivational lens in terms of is our behavior in light with our values?

Well, you need to be very clear what your vision and your values are, because the more clear you are about your vision, your values, and the more you hold tight to., it’s, I, I don’t like the term because of all the stigma behind it, but I think that’s, when you’re talking to your missionaries, you know the difference between your vision statements for the vision and the mission is for the missionaries.

And so, like you’re talking about John, the clarification of roles at the beginning and now there’s an era where interviewees or interviewing the interviewer as much, you know, that it’s, that’s becoming much more of a mutual discussion versus we’re interviewing you for a job. The workforce has control.

which means that they show up to an interview with a whole list of questions that they want answered before they’re gonna consider working for you. That was never the case generationally before. So that’s been flipped on its head. So it is much more of a mutuality. And again, I think with your generation and younger generations, they’re coming in much more clear about what is my  quality of life if I come work for you?

And if it’s not a quality of life that works for me, I will find a quality of life that works for me, even if it’s. . And that is, that is a substantial difference from the last 200 years, you know, of, of working in the United States. It’s just a different mindset. What I hear, and I think this is Danielle, coming from franchise world and coming from, you know, corporate world, and marketing world, the reality is, is if you don’t get on board with that at an administrative executive leadership, You are gonna have an extremely hard time hiring and with retention.

And that is exactly where so many people are struggling is with hiring and retention in this world of whatever quiet quitting is or generationally, is it a, a millennials thing or you know, a Gen Z thing, that it’s like, okay, corporations don’t know how to deal with, with Gen Z because it’s such a different mindset, in a workforce.

And so then, Wanna throw more money at it and hire at a higher rate. But I, we all know this, we all  know we, you read an article or turn on the news, so you’re gonna offer ’em $10 more an hour and they still don’t work more than two weeks. Like they could, after two weeks, you can offer ’em $20 more an hour and, and if it doesn’t fit for them, they’re not gonna work.

And this is what’s. I think causing the corporate world, you know, massive indigestion and loss is because they’re not, they’re, they’re on the slow uptake to how do we make this work? Because historically what it is, throw more money at it and then you can kind of slap some golden handcuffs on someone. You know, I know in with my partner, I know it’s this exact same thing.

It was golden handcuffs that kept to a high paying, extremely high paying, high benefit job. That was, you know, that was causing mental and emotional breakdown inside . So I think that that era, I, I think people are not as sure how to navigate that. I think that’s why for motivational interviewing, it is literally a communication method to how do you help organi organizations get their behavior line with their vision, mission, values, and how do you help the individuals within.

Make sure that their behaviors align with their values, because honestly, not showing up and doing your job to the best of your ability, I don’t know how much integrity that is. I think if you have an MI based conversation, I think there’s gonna be some natural ambivalence about anyone who’s in a quiet quitter perspective, or presenteeism.

Um, you know, as they’re showing up. And that’s basically what they’re doing, versus absenteeism. At least they’re present, you know? I think that if you peel the layers of that back in an empathetic, very mindful way, you, there is no way my brain can conceive that ambivalence is not gonna exist within that brain.

Yeah. Some thoughts I have in relation are, are thinking back to the, gentleman, unfortunately I can’t remember his name, with values, graphics. That was so, such an interesting conversation that we had and his. Sense of matching values. So that’s kind of what you’re talking about with mission,  vision, and values is screening for that upfront as the organization or what have you for this person’s values.

That’s what you are kind of embodying with me. Talking about earlier is you had a sense of this person’s, you know, val values for what was going on. So that’s one thing is to screen for values for each, each person, the individual and the organization, and get a sense of what values that. And at that organizational level, there’s good research to show this, this somewhat spectrum of.

And freedom and a, autonomy. And you know, on my side of things, like we, we were talking about, we’ve veered much more towards autonomy. And that’s where big organizations have found that, which is why there’s these creative days and stuff they’ll do for, their employees around just giving them some more autonomy in their.

But the less autonomy you feel, the more there tends to be this  need to financially reward and get the value that way. And there, is value to that, be it saving up for, you know, financial independence and that sort of responsibility movement, the fire movement, or, and then, you know, retiring early or, you know, getting your kicks off through.

Traveling and all that stuff, right? Like through the finances you make, but then there’s the quality of life you have at work. Like you were getting that Casey to balance that out. So it seems like it’s this balance of like autonomy. Financial freedom and what that person sees as their value system, be it integrity, a sense of contribution to something larger than themselves, that, that the values really matter, and then the work ethic or whatever an alignment takes a a, some sort of support process of.

how much is there ambivalence or not, or something around what you were just getting at there and having those conversations  baked in or something like that, where then there is that sense of clarity. I don’t know, I’m just going off of what you were saying around how much ambivalence is there or not within the organization and how much is there versus, you know, blaming the as we’ve seen in various organizations, the top saying maybe.

The bottom doesn’t see the top. And then the people more towards the line staff saying the top doesn’t see what we’re going through, you know, and not blaming outside the self, but getting a sense of the ambivalence within the organization individually and throughout. Seems like in MI perspective in that is making sure that you have the values clear and what is clear support for all of that to get, to support each.

A hundred percent. And I think that’s, you know, as we’re wrapping this up, I think that’s the thing for me, almost linking what I  launched with in terms of thinking about this from the trauma informed brain side of just where is our culture, mainstream American culture, at least from the pandemic and how it’s impacted the workforce, how it’s impacted individuals, and how that impact has impacted the workforce.

And I think when you look from that trauma lens, when I crosswalk trauma and motivational interviewing, like in the that class that I do, what I’m always looking at is when you look at the brain and the brain response, how do we respond to using language, knowing where the brain is at, that’s in that place of stress.

How do we reduce the stress in the brain so it can move up to where its values are? I mean, that that’s, it’s the same thing. How do you remove, how do you reduce the stress within an organization so it can get refocused on what’s values are and its vision is, and then is executive leadership’s behavior in alignment with what it says its vision, mission, and values are, It’s the same thing for the, you know, large corporation.

 That for that individual is, is your behavior in line with your values based on it. And when we’re under stress, we tend to be more reactive and we tend  to go into a place of what fight. Flight or freeze. So when you’re talking about that quiet, quitting or the presenteeism, you’re talking about a level of freeze that’s causing, that’s happening for people, which is not indicative of their behavior being aligned with their values.

But if you only look at the behavior, then you’re just like going, Yeah, this is a generational issue, or this is a pandemic issue, or this. Versus where is this human being at? Where are we at as a corporation or a company or or a business? And is our behavior supporting that? And are we as leaders doing what we need to do to make our workforce feel like their behaviors in align with their values?

You know, where it all comes together in a cohesive, you know, proactive, productive movement. So anyway, I can keep going on and on and on. Yeah., I’m like my, my, you just exploded my brain on so many levels. There’s so many additional topics I want to do. I know., you connected a lot of dots here, both of  you, Casey and John.

One of the things I heard loud and clear is everybody’s stepping into this and calling quiet, quitting a workforce issue. What if it’s a trauma? Yes. That’s much grander scale about, you know, yes. Involving society and what everybody has been through. Wonderful insight there. The other one that just blew me away is we look at individuals within organizations, but what about the trauma impact on the organization?

Absolutely. And what they’re going through and reacting, they can’t even get to their executive functioning. Exactly. So it, it’s, it’s just the opportunities for where I see motivational interviewing, where I see what you guys train and teach people to do. To me, it’s the missing link. That’s why I wanted to, to join with you guys because,, when I look at, organizations, you were laughing about your business plan, Casey, like I don’t have a business plan.

People who are, are financially sound and in running businesses they have a plan.  And I come from the corporate world, so you’re right, they do. And guess what? They’ve got Val, They’ve got their values, they’ve got their vision, the mission, all of that. But you know what? They don’t have. I have rarely seen, which is why I just dead cartwheels when I met.

They don’t have the system, they don’t have the tools and the approach to actually implement it and gain that alignment. If that makes sense. And that’s motivational cause that is the skill, that is motivational ring. That is the skillset that I came, that I started the business with was a, a full skill set around how do I help myself?

How do I make sure I, my behaviors align with my values? And then how do I support those around me to make sure their behaviors align with their values? Whether it’s my family, whether it’s my colleagues, my peers, my employees. Well on that note, it seems like we could keep talking, so if there is a desire for a part two, we, you can reach out to Casey if ioc.com is, one way to reach out.

 And Danielle, if there’s something else for reaching out, please definitely, correct me where I’m wrong or anything new that I might be missing. But, that’s.

I IOC dot com’s. Great. Also, just visit if ioc.com, check in with us on social, reach out if you do want any support and gaining this kind of alignment that we’re talking about. And I do have a feeling there’s gonna be, Yeah. And for anyone that’s interested in jumping in on the conversation, if they’re experiencing it, Would like to submit questions around it or anything, we can definitely go in further and deeper or more specific into more granular things.

There’s just a lot there having worked with, so many different organizations, be it government, non-profit, or even at times very trying to be ethically for profit. There’s just a lot of organizational development that Kcu have worked with a lot of administrators. And leaders within  organizations how to go about this.

We’ve worked, with supervisors. And how do you do that when you’re burnt out as a supervisor, but also working with employees that are burnt out? How do you manage all that to when you are the provider, either through secondary trauma or just. Not feeling aligned or whatever. How do you do that? So there’s a lot of ways.

We’ve worked with a lot of people that hopefully could be helpful for you. If you’re listening to this in some sort of a way, reach out casey f i.com and we will go deeper or broader or whatever works best for you. So thank you so much for your time, Casey. Danielle, did you have anything else before we sign?

No, just thanks for listening. I mean, I, this is the reason why you keep showing up is because you keep listening, so I appreciate it. Well, Daniel said we will continue to try to be the provider of what is helpful for your communication, as we are the MI guys and trying to provide the communication solution.

So that is our motto that we want to keep giving to you. So goodbye for. We’ll see you next time.